Decks that focus on alternate victory conditions

[Shaolin Yautja]

Here's my thoughts on those non-confrontation deck types that focus on winning by satisfying alternate victory conditions:

I can clearly see that when it comes to non-confrontation alternate victory condition type of decks, Rogues hands down is the winner and the best faction for this. Most fun IMO when it comes to this area, especially for the data theft victory.

I like how when you "evac" or upload data tokens in your starting Airlock location, an enemy character merely being present won't prevent this unlike when a Predator that is trying to leave because he has satisfied all of his honor requirements or Marines that have civvies that they are trying to rescue at a docking bay. Although the latter could surprise an opponent by evacuating with the EEV event instead of the docking bay.

For the Marines, it's best to have 2 or 3 copies of EEV in the deck and being able to search out those civvies quickly and use similar stall, movement control tactics and strategies.

The EEVs are a must to get around an oponent that will most likely be camping at the docking bay to confront you and try to stop you from leaving and winning by rescue.

In Contact, they penalize and increase the number of civvies that are required to be rescued if at least two of the Marine's starting characters that are above the rank of Private or if they started with any unranked character. While Rogues suffer no such similar penalties for their hostage kidnapping victory requirements at all, regardless of which main characters they choose to start with.

While Predator's win through "honor" condition is arguably the worst one. Mainly because Display of Skill had been nerfed and errata'd at one point that it can no longer reduce the honor amount printed on a Predator main character. Before the errata and need it appears that was the card a Predator player would build their deck around in combination with Honored Elder's effect of doubles CP generation.

And because of that change, almost all Preds honor victory condition requires combat no matter what and so it's awful and slow.

Eager Youth is probably the only Predator worth the trouble for trying to win through honor either by building a deck around evacuating and rescuing an Ambushed Predator or to kill civvies as quicly as possible.

Other preds will most likely need The Hunt and kill many Aliens to ever come close to satisfying those honor requirements and conditions to win.

And once again, killing enough enemies to satisfy the honor requirement simply is Not enough. You are also required to be able to evacuate and leave. By having to evacuate means that if an enemy character is able to reach you and connect to you they can stop you from leaving entirely by confronting you at your Predator Shuttle or ship. Where Marines and Rogues have the EEV card to bypass and workaround this issue, the Predator however, has no such workaround at all. They have to reach their ship or shuttle first and hopefully have The Area is Secure and/or Not that Way to try and secure a safe evacuation.

The Hive all locations style Aliens decks are also interesting. But from what I've seen, they seem to work best built around destroying a Heat Exchanger and hiving locations that are Entry locations and won't be destroyed when the Heat Exchanger goes off because they aren't connected. That way one does not have to hive dozens of locations to accomplish this victory condition.

Hiving locations away seems to work very well against solo predator decks. It could make things difficult and annoying for one Pred to try and chase all of your Aliens down.

All of the following above is how I see it in general for 1 vs 1 matches.

Things would be very different for 3 way and 4 way matches where all factions and species are involved. There are many more variables involved in those situations.

But if all factions were to use alternate victory decks in one match playing against each other at the same time, then I would believe Rogues would still win the race first almost every single time with their data theft condition, with maybe Marinee and Aliens coming farely close behind with their rescue operation and hive conversion conditions.

[Fireblood]

Whenever I play Predator I always just load him down with Items and try to go for the kill 'em all victory.

[Axlotl]

I've got an upcoming card for my new set that should be an interesting tool for an honor victory deck.

[doctordolemite]

Oct 2, 2020 8:49:28 GMT -5 Fireblood said:

Whenever I play Predator I always just load him down with Items and try to go for the kill 'em all victory.

Same. By the time I have the proper gear equipped to handle the enemy the honor requirement is beyond an obtainable victory that one might as well just kill everyone. Unless you're playing against multiple people. Which in most cases I am not.

[doctordolemite]

Oct 2, 2020 12:45:04 GMT -5 Axlotl said:

I've got an upcoming card for my new set that should be an interesting tool for an honor victory deck.

I always look forward to your cards

[Shaolin Yautja]

Oct 3, 2020 15:16:56 GMT -5 doctordolemite said:

Oct 2, 2020 8:49:28 GMT -5 Fireblood said:

Whenever I play Predator I always just load him down with Items and try to go for the kill 'em all victory.

Same. By the time I have the proper gear equipped to handle the enemy the honor requirement is beyond an obtainable victory that one might as well just kill everyone. Unless you're playing against multiple people. Which in most cases I am not.

In the cases where the opponents are using either Marines or Rogues, then that is very true more often than not.

In most cases everyone would pick and choose a 5 Speed "Veteran" Predator for Solo Predator decks, and majority of their printed starting honor requirements are significantly high.

And then to top it off by the time you have all of your vital gear, equipment and items to engage your opponent, the honor requirement would even entirely exceed killing all of your enemy characters in play. Meaning even if you kill them all you still won't meet the bare minimum to satisfy your honor requirement. Humans simply don't provide enough honor unless one chooses a watered down and weaker Predator and take greater risks by using fewer items.

In general, almost all Solo Predator decks will wield 2 Plasma Casters and 1 Camousuit which would easily be an additional 30 honor points they must attain plus the 2 points for the Melee Claws they start with AND their starting honor that is printed on themselves. And don't forget about Laser Sight. Those are the typical staple Predator items.

One possible exception is if Sporting Chance was used and Camouflage Suit wasn't used, but that's not all too reliable and risky. Majority of Solo Predator players simply wouldn't want to sacrifice the Camouflage Suit and It's Just The Cat and/or Trick Of The Light as those are some very good and unique advantages Predator has in their strategy.

I remember seeing a Fast Claw deck on the avp ccg official website that was built around aggression, and it consist of virtually no ranged weapons with the Sporting Chance for supporting honor requirement. But this is a very special exception as Fast Claw is the only predator that has a plus 1 to hit for melee combat and in general, melee combat is risky and very bad when using Predator.

In other situations, honor victory may be attainable against Aliens by having a copy of The Hunt in the deck and declaring an Alien Queen as a target. Something I had seen in the Contact sample game and deck list that had been posted on the avp ccg website.

But this greatly depends if your opponent's deck is built around bringing more Aliens in play.

If they are running around all over and hiving locations, good luck catching up to them.

As for playing against multiple opponents, that also comes with additional risks because just when you had satisfied your honor requirement, then one of your other opponents may have one of their characters waiting for you at your evacuation point whether it's a predator shuttle, ship or mother ship to confront you and may stop you cold from leaving and winning.

I always felt that a mandatory evacuation is the Biggest problem with the honor victory requirement as there simply isn't a whole lot of support to get around it. Because once an opponent gets a character to your ship to prevent you from leaving, they may keep it up in subsequent turns unless you manage to defeat all of those enemy characters going into your evacuation point and challenging your escape. And should you fail to, then you're done for.

[Axlotl]

Finally previewed that card I mentioned. There's a few other pieces of support for an aggressive honor victory coming too, unless we never fight some predators again.

[doctor]

I have a feeling that whole alt win conditions when ressurection came out were never tested and most of cards or strategies don`t realy fit.

In Ressurection we have Purvis witch counts as 3 supporting characters BUT ONLY FOR MARINES, i never understood why rogues got cards like "If he dies You die" (would be great is Purvis would be x3 supporting character for all Human players). Still holding hostages gives more minus than plus in a long run, having unconcealed weapons is the biggest minus of all, that 6-7 dmg weapons while unconcealed are practicaly nothing without concealed attack, getting military arms in rogue case is crazy and too much card intensive (Armory in deck can bring marines to you, Tavern {not sure about it`s effect, was it changed from marine to human or not} + black market requires 5cp to search military arms and rogues already are struggling for cp even without that leaving only real option of getting military arms is to get it from dead marines and that`s practicaly end of game.

In Predators case, that whole capture the queen win cons are are there probably only for lore, too much cards needed while killing her is plain easier and requires less cards. 

[Axlotl]

Rez has an absurd amount of niche cards in it - like the huge amount of cards interacting with Infected and Submerged tht almost never get used. Its such a crying shame that Atmosphere never came out officially, because Rez is much more underwhelming without Atmosphere expanding on things and Atmosphere would have been a much more exciting product to end on.

[gameoverman]

There was one girl on the tournament circuit back in the day that had a nasty research point grind deck. It centered around fortifying and barricading Science Lab with Ash, Lab Workers & using CPL Hicks to ready them when he wasn’t providing active defense. Sentry Guns and CPL Myler with the M4A2, Ripley with Demolition Charge, Hand Welder if needed to separate locations. Security Checkpoint to screen hidden movement. It was really annoying to play against haha, I still remember she had a dang Dockworker
in a Powerloader pincer grab my Predator for like three turns one game.

[doctordolemite]

Oct 14, 2020 0:31:10 GMT -5 gameoverman said:

There was one girl on the tournament circuit back in the day that had a nasty research point grind deck. It centered around fortifying and barricading Science Lab with Ash, Lab Workers & using CPL Hicks to ready them when he wasn’t providing active defense. Sentry Guns and CPL Myler with the M4A2, Ripley with Demolition Charge, Hand Welder if needed to separate locations. Security Checkpoint to screen hidden movement. It was really annoying to play against haha, I still remember she had a dang Dockworker
in a Powerloader pincer grab my Predator for like three turns one game.

That sounds really annoyingly useful LOL! That's pretty cool you did the tournament circuit. I'd be interested to see pictures of how the reps set them up or more stores about them.

[doctor]

The whole concept of Research Points Marines was actualy quite strong and RE actualy upgraded it. While Science Lab marines with Bishop, Hicks and stuff like New Era In Science was already strong, cards like Unexpected Benefits, Dr Wren, dr Gediman, experimental research realy helped that deck even more.

[Shaolin Yautja]

Oct 14, 2020 0:31:10 GMT -5 gameoverman said:

There was one girl on the tournament circuit back in the day that had a nasty research point grind deck. It centered around fortifying and barricading Science Lab with Ash, Lab Workers & using CPL Hicks to ready them when he wasn’t providing active defense. Sentry Guns and CPL Myler with the M4A2, Ripley with Demolition Charge, Hand Welder if needed to separate locations. Security Checkpoint to screen hidden movement. It was really annoying to play against haha, I still remember she had a dang Dockworker
in a Powerloader pincer grab my Predator for like three turns one game.

Was this prior to the erratas and before Resurrection? Specifically for the Hand Welder mechanics?

If so, I remember it was broken as before the barrier mechanic was implemented, Hand Welder's effect permanently disconnected locations and the only way around the problem is using Access Tunnel.

All I remember is that Hand Welder worked as a one time use barrier card with a power of 5 after the weld is completed in the revised errata, wasn't too sure how pre-errata was like. I would presume that it was a re-usable item that players could abuse over and over again and cut off their opponent from ever connecting to them. And in the Contact Scenario it said something about Hand Welder being treated as a unique card for deck building purpose so I would presume this card was very broken prior to being updated with the barrier mechanics added from Resurrection.

One issue I noticed is that Demolition Charge is used with Ripley? Because Ripley does not have the Marine resource to legally use items that are military arms, so maybe she has a Marine Short Course in her deck for this?

I always felt they should have allowed Ripley to be able to use the Flame Thrower though, regardless of having a Marine resource or not. But that's just how it is, no Marine resource, can't legally use any military arms Unless their effect text says other wise such as Rogue Assassin or Dallas.

Pincer grab is a nasty card, but I wonder how she managed to get a successful hit on you?

Which predator were you using at the time? Because if it was a 5 speed predator with a defense bonus such as reflexive action and camousuit then it would be quite difficult for them to hit you with a pincer grab.

[Shaolin Yautja]

Oct 13, 2020 16:15:47 GMT -5 doctor said:

I have a feeling that whole alt win conditions when ressurection came out were never tested and most of cards or strategies don`t realy fit.

In Ressurection we have Purvis witch counts as 3 supporting characters BUT ONLY FOR MARINES, i never understood why rogues got cards like "If he dies You die" (would be great is Purvis would be x3 supporting character for all Human players). Still holding hostages gives more minus than plus in a long run, having unconcealed weapons is the biggest minus of all, that 6-7 dmg weapons while unconcealed are practicaly nothing without concealed attack, getting military arms in rogue case is crazy and too much card intensive (Armory in deck can bring marines to you, Tavern {not sure about it`s effect, was it changed from marine to human or not} + black market requires 5cp to search military arms and rogues already are struggling for cp even without that leaving only real option of getting military arms is to get it from dead marines and that`s practicaly end of game.

In Predators case, that whole capture the queen win cons are are there probably only for lore, too much cards needed while killing her is plain easier and requires less cards. 

I checked the avp ccg web archive on Tavern. No mention anywhere of erratas and change to it's effect text. Therefore it's effect of being able to draw cards after rotating would only apply to characters that have the Marine resource. The Human errata only applies for event cards from Premiere that have Marine restriction, but anytime the effect text on a card says Marine then it only applies to characters with the Marine resource. I would presume that when it comes to Rogues, you could only use Tavern's effect once per turn by rotating Distephano if you have him on your team, but that is about it.

Some of those other alternate victory conditions in Countdown seems to be meant for 3 players or more.

In Contact, all factions only have 2 victory conditions, either eliminate all opponent's main characters or an alternate victory condition. The choices of multiple victory conditions per factio in Countdown became expanded to allow more variety of deckbuilding.

Such as Rogue' s Recalibrate Ground Level special victory. You have to be on Turn 21 in the game's turn count first and then if any of your characters survive after play RGL, you win immediately. Surviving 20 whole turns for 1 on 1 match is very unlikely and improbable no matter how many resources you have to stall your opponent.

I think similarly for the queen capturing. Then that means the Predator player will need Trick Shots, Force nets and the darts weapon. It will come with significant risks for a 1 on 1 match between an Aliens player and Predator player, but it may be more possible in a 3 way or 4 way match.

The queen capturing victory only apply to predator hunting packs which have substantially limited access to the camousuit and the regular plasma caster isn't allowed at all for predator packs. Instead they must use a watered down Hunter's caster.

Solo Predator can also win similarly by capturing and evacuating a Newborn and even that comes with significant risks unless a newborn was badly wounded first but survived a fight against Marines or Rogues.

[gameoverman]

“Was this prior to the erratas and before Resurrection? Specifically for the Hand Welder mechanics?”

Correct, this was before any errata. Hand Welder & multiple Sentry Guns were broken for USMC, Display Of Skill was broken for Predator especially in conjunction with Honored Elder.

I should also note that before we had actual Judges from the company at events, different card stores & comic shops all had varying rules - mostly centered around the combat resolution process.

She ran Marine Short Course, she didn’t have Bishop for the longest time because no one wanted to trade it to her. She won a box of decks and pulled it from them later on.

I always felt that the M240 Flame Thrower should have been Weaponry and not Military Arms.

I was running Eager Youth for the quick finish, no camo suit.