Battlegrounds: Living Card Game

[whiteumbrella]

Okay, so I've mentioned it a few times before in my other threads, the idea of redesigning the Battlegrounds system, effectively from the ground up. While most of the functions of the game would remain the same, it would involve streamlining, standardizing, and getting rid of a few of the less useful parts of the system. One of the goals would be, as seen before, utilizing a value system for all Characters, Items, and Vehicles. Another, would be to make it so that every resource has a usefulness in the game. No longer will Coward simply prevent you from using Adrenaline Rush and using Cower. Its a daunting task, so my first action is to simply ask:

Would it be taken seriously? With the advent of things like the Apprentice 2 program being developed, and the Tabletop Simulator on Steam, distribution of a finished product is becoming increasingly easy. If the answer is yes, I'll start working on the updates in an order of apparent significance (ie, characters, then items, then events, etc)

[Axlotl]

Not all resources need equal representation. It leaves room for future expansion, and weights your card choices. I see no problem with only a handful of interaction with certain resources like Coward.

[zorenathres]

it really depends on what you are planning on doing, if by "utilizing a value system" you mean applying a command cost/ value to each & every card that just sounds tedious.

it might help if you had an outline for your desired changes to the battlegrounds system, that way we have some idea of what it is you hope to accomplish.

[whiteumbrella]

GAH! Forums ate my post! Anyways...reconstructing...

Firstly, my apologies for the absence. Real Life has been a bit..trying of late, eating up lots of free time.

After rereading my own post, and thinking about your responses, I realize what I really wanted to do boils down to three bullet points:
1) Honor Requirements/Victory: Aside from specialized equipment like the Plasma Caster, which is typically only seen in extermination hunts (AvP used low-power ones for the blooding mission in the background information; AvP:R used a pair of high-power ones for an extermination mission; haven't been able to track down good copies of the books to read to see how prevalent they are in those), once you use anything besides claws/mask, you pretty much give up trying to win by honor, and I see that as a problem. Honor is a real thing for Predators (at least, honorable ones), so it should be an attainable goal while still having a fun game on multiple levels.
2) Honor Values: Tying in with the above, I think they tried staying too close to the source material, as opposed to playability. While its nice that you don't have to have armed characters to gain honor, a Child shouldn't be a viable target for a Predator's wrath, ever, nor should it be the equivalent of a Security Guard (who's auto-armed with a pistol). Supporting characters, and to a degree all characters, need a re-evaluation of their value to different deck types. I know I personally use Security Guards/Chief in my Predator honor deck, simply because it feels more realistic that way. Not for everyone, but then again, neither should a deck based around killing Pet and/or Child characters for honor, either.
3) Events: I've seen a large variance of power in terms of what events can do for you. For example, while combat is a large part of the game, it seems that every deck runs 1/2 to 3/4 of their events as strictly combat boosts, even worse if you're playing Marines. Not to beat a dead horse, and strictly as a point of interest/comparison, is Close Combat considered so much worse than any Ranged that something like Body Slam (CC Damage +2, or +4 if Confined Location) and From Behind (CC Damage +1, +1 if Lethal, +1 if Alien, +1 if Queen, so a Queen is +4 total) are "as powerful" as Ranged damage boosts which range from +1/+2 to +2/+3? It just seems...peculiar. And since so much combat boost was in Premier, subsequent sets only usually have very specific new boosts...

I realize that's a lot, and most of it is covered under the "Premier was very beta-y" explanation, but as someone who wants to get into this field, possibly with a revamp of this system, its important information.

EDIT: On a note related to points 1 and 2, I'm looking over the Honor Requirement breakdown that was covered in another thread, and applying its logic to other characters, to see what the system says they should be "worth"...results will follow in a later post.

[zorenathres]

all of these are valid concerns, & as honor can be addressed by those better on the subject than i, i would say that Events certainly do deserve some attention.

yes ranged combat is better in almost all respects, however, it is (imo) a way to balance the human factions against the rest. yes, predators get ranged weapons, but more than likely they are playing solo & only get one ranged attack per turn, whereas marines get up to 4 ranged attacks per turn, possibly with pulse rifles & smartguns, balanced by the fact that humans are squishy, & their opponents are, well, "hard meat".

i do agree however, that close combat events should take into consideration these differences, such as having a few events that work like ambush point (attack simultaneously with ranged attacks) & the like. does a character making a close combat attack from a hidden movement marker deserve a "surprise attack"? all valid points...

[Axlotl]

Honor victory was probably the worst mechanic from Premiere.

Alt victories should be easily integrated into a deck as a back up win, and honor requires a dedicated focus to even be slightly viable that none of the other factions ever need to deal with.

Honor as it relates to starting cards is good, though. Adds flavor, sets Pred apart from humans.

[whiteumbrella]

Okay, so I used the table from the Predator Honor Guide thread to establish a basis of what each Human/Synthetic character would "cost" if they used the same system as the Predators do. I am not saying they should, I just use it as a point of reference, mainly to point out the drastic difference in apparent power level between them. Note that most characters have a negative value, a value either one point above or below what they're "worth" (2 Honor, base), or extremely high (5+ points of "Value").

This is the information from the above thread, slightly appended:

CARD VALUE INDEX

Baseline: Speed 3, Power 3, Species Resource, Faction Resource, two additional Resources
*Alien Lineage is part of their free Species Resource; additional Resources typically include type/function (Drone, Guard, Queen) and Lethal



Speed +1 = +2 Value
Power +1 = +1 Value



Specific Resources:
Leader = +3 Value
Lucky = +2 Value
Unlucky = -2 Value

Effect Text Examples:
Armor +1 = +0.5 Value
Defense +1 = +1 Value
Move +1 = +1 Value

+1 Damage/CC/any = +0.5 Value
+1 Damage/Range/any = +3 Value
+1 Damage/CC/specific = +0.5 Value; gain additional +1 Damage/CC/specific for free (ie Aliens)
+1 Damage/Range/specific = +0.5 Value

+1 To-Hit/CC/any = +1 Value
+1 To-Hit/Range/any = +5 Value
+1 To-Hit/CC/specific = +1 Value
+1 To-Hit/Range/specific = +2 Value

The difference is that I broke down the +Damage and +To-Hit into +1 increments, and applied a value for the half-effects from added Ability/Attribute Points. The only one of these I'm not sure about is the Armor one. Armor is part of Power, which technically has 3 uses: CC/Thrown damage, Resistance, and Health.

And here are the character costs, based on the above table, and a bit of ad-hoc judgement based on unique card text::

Ash = Value 2.25
SP3/PW4 = +1 Value
3rd general Resource = +.25 Value
Free RP each turn = +1 Value (based on Breathrough having no cost but double the effect)

Bishop = Value 4.75
SP4/PW5 = 4 Value
3rd general Resource = +.25 value
Rotate for 1 RP = +.5 Value

Carter Burke = Value -1
SP2/PW2 = -3 Value
Unlucky Resource = -2 Value
Expanded search text = +4 Value (based on Honor value of a Military Arms item)

*CPL Ackels = Value -1.5
SP2/PW3 = -2 Value
3rd/4th general Resource = +.5 Value

CPL Brown = Value 3.25
3rd general Resource = +.25 Value
+1 To-Hit/any = +6 Value
Weapon Damage on “1” = -3 Value (cost based on CP cost of Malfunction + permanence w/o Unlucky)

CPL Hicks = Value 7.5
SP3/PW4 = +1 Value
3rd/4th general Resource = +.5 Value
+1 To-Hit/Ranged = +5 Value
Rotate: Ready a Marine = +1 Value (cost based on CP cost of Wake Up Hicks)

CPL Myler = Value 1.5
SP2/PW3 = -2 Value
3rd/4th general Resource = +.5 Value
+1 To-Hit/Ranged/specific = +3 Value

Dallas = Value 4
SP3/PW3 = +0 Value
Resource: Leader = +3 Value
“Can use Military Arms” = +1 Value (based on Marine Short Course requiring 2 Resources)

Kane = Value -3
SP2/PW2 = -3 Value
Resource: Unlucky = -2 Value
Play/Explore new Location = +2 Value (no basis, based on Locations being in own deck in Premiere)

Lambert = Value -2
SP2/PW2 = -3 Value
Two general Resources = 0 Value
MP*2 for Defense 0 = +1 Value (reversal of Sprint, which has no costs to play)

LT Campbell = Value 3
SP2/PW4 = -1 Value
Resource: Leader = +3 Value
Rotate to gain 1CP = +1 Value (based on Meditation card, which has no other costs to play)

Marine Private = Value -2
SP2/PW3 = -2 Value
Keyword: Generic = 0 Value

Parker = Value 0
SP2/PW4 = -1 Value
Rotate: Find specific card = +1 Value (specific card which imitates, at best, a Shotgun and the -1/-1 penalties)

PVT Hewitt = Value 0.25
SP2/PW4 = -1 Value
3rd general Resource = +.25 Value
Group immune: Outnumber = +1 Value (based on similarity, and lack of, with Access Tunnel)

PVT Hudson = Value 2.5
SP2/PW4 = -1 Value
Resource: Unlucky = -2 Value
3rd/4th general Resource = +.5 Value
+1 To-Hit/Ranged/any = +5 Value

PVT Masters = Value 0.25
SP3/PW3 = 0 Value
3rd general Resource = +.25 Value

*PVT McIntyre = Value -2
SP2/PW3 = -2 Value

*PVT Rogers = Value -2.75
SP2/PW4 = -1 Value
Resource: Unlucky = -2 Value
3rd general Resource = +.25 Value

PVT Von Gries = Value -1
SP2/PW4 = -1 Value

Ripley = Value 3
SP3/PW3 = 0 Value
Resource: Lucky = +2 Value
Rotate: Move 1 Location = +1 Value (half the usefulness of SP+1; usable anytime; req rotate)

SGT Bass = Value 7.75
SP2/PW4 = -1 Value
Resource: Leader = +3 Value
3rd general Resource = +.25 Value
Rotate: All Marines +1 To-Hit = +6 Value (cost of +1 To-Hit/any, req rotate, affect self, AoE)

SGT Hart = Value 8.5
SP3/PW3 = 0 Value
3rd/4th general Resource = +.5 Value
+1 To-Hit/any = +6 Value
No CP-cost cards = +2 Value (based on number/effect of cards that can't affect)

WO Kraver = Value 1.25
SP2/PW4 = -1 Value
3rd general Resource = +.25 Value
Search deck for S.Characters = +2 Value (based on similarity/lack of to Where There's One)


If anyone spots any glaring problems (besides that its based on Predator mains), please point them out so I can fix them. My biggest issue with the current state of the Premiere Humans is that they've got a couple really high value characters (Bass, Hart, Hicks), and the rest are either negative or near-zero... The starter deck squad clock in at -1, -1.5, -2, and -2.75; if you ignore the cost for the "general" Resources (not Leader, Lucky, Unlucky), then they become -1, -2, -2, -3, for a total value of -8 Honor for killing off the opposing team.....

[Shaolin Yautja]

Sept 6, 2015 16:00:50 GMT -5 Axlotl said:

Honor victory was probably the worst mechanic from Premiere.

Alt victories should be easily integrated into a deck as a back up win, and honor requires a dedicated focus to even be slightly viable that none of the other factions ever need to deal with.

Honor as it relates to starting cards is good, though. Adds flavor, sets Pred apart from humans.

It seemed like the only 2 Predators that should even bother with the Honor victory method are Eager Youth and Young Tusk as their starting Honor is low enough. Every other Predator has very high honor and would only barely be able to win through honor when using The Hunt event against an Alien Queen. It's practically pointless to try and win through honor when fighting humans. They are so fragile to your weapons that you're better off just focusing on attacking them and picking them off one at a time instead. Just watch out for free attacks, malfunctions, disarmament, etc.